Culture chat: celebrating pop girl summer, from Brat to Chappell Roan
从Brat到Chappell Roan，庆祝流行女孩的夏天
We dissect this summer’s explosion of pop girls, including Charli XCX’s album ‘Brat’ and pop sensation Chappell Roan
今夏流行女歌手大受欢迎，包括Charli XCX的专辑《Brat》和流行女歌手Chappell Roan， Sabrina Carpenter，今夏的风潮与千禧年初的流行歌手趋势比之如何？
Lilah Raptopoulos
Welcome to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos, and this is our Friday chat show. Today we are talking about what we’re calling pop girl summer. This summer’s music scene has been dominated by a wave of young women singers, including Chappell Roan, Charli XCX and Sabrina Carpenter, alongside more name-brand stars like Taylor Swift and Billie Eilish. What’s interesting is that this goes against what we keep hearing: that the music industry is so fragmented, with so many people listening to different things that it’s hard to achieve real stardom, let alone start a trend. So today, we’ve invited two of our pop music experts on to talk about why and how we found ourselves, in the words of Chappell Roan, in a “femininomenon”.
I’m Lilah and I try to be the chill girl. But honestly, I’m not. Joining me from London, she’s H-O-T-T-O-G-O, and her kink is karma. It’s our wonderful music writer, Arwa Haider. Hi, Arwa.
Arwa Haider
Hey. How’s it going? What an introduction.
Lilah Raptopoulos
I really thought I was gonna get that acronym wrong, but I got there.
Arwa Haider
I’m impressed you could pronounce the “femininomenon”.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Thank you so much. Also in London, she’s 666 with a princess streak. It is our US media correspondent Anna Nicolaou.
Anna Nicolaou
Hey, Lilah.
Lilah Raptopoulos
And I’ve been waiting for that one for you. How are you?
Anna Nicolaou
I’m perfect now that this is happening.
Lilah Raptopoulos
OK, let’s get into it. I’m really thrilled that the three of us are talking about this, partially because, Arwa, you’re a music expert on the culture side and Anna, you’re an expert on the business side, but also because all three of us love pop stars.
Arwa Haider
Yeah, definitely.
Lilah Raptopoulos
So we’re just right in our . . .
Anna Nicolaou
Huge interests.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. And so my first question is: how would we describe to listeners what’s happening here, this idea, the idea of pop girl summer that we invented? Why? Where does it come from? What does it mean? Arwa?
Arwa Haider
Pop girl summer is a kind of spin on hot girl summer, which is kind of an internet hashtag. I think that I’m pretty sure it stemmed from Megan Thee Stallion track, didn’t it? Several years ago?
Lilah Raptopoulos
I think, yeah. “Hot Girl Summer”.
Arwa Haider
But, yeah, I mean, to me what pop girl summer is about is music that summons this sense of exhilaration, rebellion, frivolity, a sense of, you know, celebrating, looking good and feeling amazing about yourself and body positivity and not necessarily being responsible about things. So I guess that kind of headrush of music that we would associate with vacation season, but just really sounds amazing at any time, really.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, totally. As you were talking, I was thinking of Chappell Roan’s song, “Casual”, where she’s sort of singing a ballad and it’s sort of about going down on a woman in the passenger seat of a car, but it’s also . . . so it’s like it’s sort of like it’s serious and it’s brooding, but also it’s fun and it’s hot and it’s gay and I don’t know, it’s sort of all of these things at the same time.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Anna, what about, what does pop girl summer mean to you? And I’m like, who? Who mean who . . .
Anna Nicolaou
#MyPopGirlSummer. I think everything Awra said perfectly summarised it. I think it’s also just been a really good year for music. We’re about halfway through the year now, and there’s just been a lot of good releases. And at least for me, a lot of them have been from the girls like Billie Eilish, Ariana Grande, Beyoncé. It just feels like we’ve had this, like, embarrassment of riches, of just really good music coming out all the time. But yeah, I think there’s this kind of fun irreverence to it. And it feels quite feminine in a lot of ways.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, I agree. Who do you listen to the most?
Anna Nicolaou
I mean, my whole life is just pop girls. But I think, like, of the ones we’re talking about, Chappell Roan is probably the one that I feel like most personally into. I think she’s fun. I think she’s kind of campy in the way we haven’t had from a new star in quite a long time. And I don’t know, she just, I really like listening to her while I’m, like, walking to get my coffee.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Well, what about you? What pop girls are you listening to? Are you listening to Charli? Are you listening to Chappell?
Arwa Haider
I mean, for me, Charli XCX, I’ve just really enjoyed watching her career and listening to her career for years because she really did start out very young. I think she’s always had . . . I think Charli XCX has always had a brilliant knack for just these pop bangers that have a really crisp edge and experimental streak as well. I’ve got to say, some of her poppiest moments have really connected with me. And on the recent album, Brat, I really love “Girl, So Confusing”, the remix of that with Lorde, I just think is just really smart and funny and also really sharp. And it, you know, takes a swipe at a, you know, frankly, very ruthless music industry.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yes. I love that song too.
[“GIRL, SO CONFUSING” BY CHARLI XCX PLAYING]
So let’s get a little deeper into Chappell Roan and Charli XCX, because they both seem to have blasted into the summer with these viral hits. Why don’t we start with Chappell? Anna? She seemed to have appeared out of the dust. I know she didn’t, but where did she come from?
Anna Nicolaou
Yeah. So she . . . she’s really, really interesting, I think, as kind of a music industry case study because she, almost a decade ago now, got discovered on YouTube for her early songs as a teenager, got signed to a major record label and then was putting out music for years. She came from what I understand, a kind of traditional Midwest background, conservative, religious, surrounded by all of that. And I guess she didn’t really have . . . I mean, I think she’s had a following for quite a while, and she’s always had fans, but it didn’t seem to like really click for a long time. And she eventually got dropped by Atlantic Records, who I’m surely are not happy now about that decision they made. And so I guess it’s kind of been the slow burn that we’ve seen over time of her music getting more and more popular, and now it’s kind of rising up the Spotify charts and she’s getting more and more recognition. You know, in much more mainstream way just in recent months. But she’s been doing this for quite a long time, and it seems to all be kind of coalescing now. And she’s becoming kind of this, one of the leading newer hot stars.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah. And then Charli, Charli XCX feels different because she’s been sort of like a lesser-known pop star for a long time. I mean, she did “I Don’t Care I Love It”. One of my favourite pop songs of all time with a kind of pop. She also did another. What was her other big song?
Arwa Haider
She had “Boom Clap”. Which is obviously on the soundtrack as well. I think she . . . but with Charli XCX, I think there’s a similar parallel in that in the initial breakthrough was sort of credited to the internet. In her case, MySpace, which really does feel like days of yore. And she also, you know, honed her sound through kind of the club scene as well. She’s tussled with both major label success and being a very fiercely independent artist.
This year, her sixth album, Brat, came out, and the name itself kind of embodies a sort of spirit that not only applies to, I think, her approach, this kind of rebelliousness and unruly, quite chaotic, but also really beautiful energy. But it’s impressive, I think, that she’s kind of got to this point where she’s actually amassed a really solid catalogue of work, both as an artist in her own right and through loads of collaborations, working with people like Robyn, with Lorde, with Rae, and, yeah, she feels like a survivor, which is an admirable thing.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Totally. And Brat, I mean, the way that I would explain Brat is it’s this album that has this sort of like, it’s like slime green cover. It’s lowercase b-r-a-t. I just envision, like, a girl rolling her eyes with her tongue sticking out, kind of, is this like, is the image to me of Brat. What does it mean? You know, when people are talking about Brat summer? What are they talking about?
Anna Nicolaou
To me, it almost feels like this, like, throwback to, like, the Indie Sleaze, early aughts. You’re in a warehouse in Bushwick vibe. Or at least I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s what Charli intended, but that’s what it feels like. Again, it’s kind of just, like, fun, edgy.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Countercultural.
Anna Nicolaou
Yeah.
Arwa Haider
I think it feels . . . I mean, your point, Anna, was really good about that sort of recognisable Indie Sleaze feel. I think it feels both lo-fi and knowing as well. I think Charli XCX is really savvy, and I think she just encompasses, she just embodies this really scrappy energy, but also manages to kind of summon amazing pop tunes through it as well.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Totally. I think a great example of that is the song “360”, which is her biggest song on the album.
OK. Why don’t we broaden this out beyond Chappell and Charli? The obvious place to go next is Sabrina Carpenter. She’s a little more established, and that she was one of Disney’s child stars like Olivia Rodrigo. So she’s kind of been in the machine. So this summer, she’s had a number one Billboard hit with “Please, Please, Please”. She also has a second top 10 hit, “Espresso”. And these songs, I was really interested to see, have been streamed like, more than any of the other songs that we’re talking about. “Espresso” was streamed 788mn times. “Espresso” just shows up everywhere.
And I’m curious, Anna. Can you tell me, like, what’s going on here with Sabrina Carpenter? We had you on earlier this year to say there weren’t going to be any new pop stars. Is she? What’s going on?
Anna Nicolaou
I stand by it, by the way. I mean, OK, so I strangely have been aware of her for a very long time. She’s definitely the most traditional pop star, I would say, of the people we’re talking about.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Blonde, sort of clean cut.
Anna Nicolaou
Yeah. I mean, she’s a bit more. I guess she’s more sexual than a Taylor would be, but she’s, yeah, she’s very much kind of like, feels like a bubblegum pop type of vibe. I think, but yeah, it’s interesting because in some ways I find her less interesting to think about or talk about, but the others are still much more niche. If you look at like the Charli music video for “360”, she has all these pretty famous people in the video. It’s probably one of the bigger songs on her album, but I think there’s 6mn views, which sounds like a lot, obviously, but it’s really not that much. Yeah, like in the realm of pop culture. Yeah. So I think it’s, I don’t know, I stand by what I said a few months ago. I think what we are seeing and I mean in the industry, for example, all the executives are very, very excited. I think there’s much more optimism. Just seeing new pseudo stars popping out and kind of moving culture.
Arwa Haider
I’m just thinking, I love the time you just used on the, like, pseudo star or something. Yeah.
Anna Nicolaou
I mean, the stars are like, are they like, yeah, there’s everyone on the street around the world know who they are. I think there’s a how do you define a star like, I don’t know, does it matter?
Arwa Haider
I mean, certainly it’s subjective, but at the same time it’s totally tangible. But, I mean, I think there’s a dissonance in the digital age. I think the one thing I would say for Charli XCX and also Chappell is, I feel like they have real-time, real-life fanbases that are very, very dedicated. If you go to a show, certainly, I mean, I can only speak for Charli in terms of having been to an actual show, but I mean, you Really get a sense of a very dedicated fan base that live and breathe this material and how it relates to them. I’m not sure I’m really feeling that’s in the case with Sabrina Carpenter, although, you know, zillions of people are, you know, into the music.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. It seems like she’s a more traditional through the machine pop star. I would imagine that Sabrina Carpenter, like, she’s a star in that: Has my mother heard her song in a coffee shop? Yes. But would she know who she is? No.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, I do the same. Like, I remember my dad really liked “Havana” by Camila Cabello when that was, like, that huge hit. He definitely doesn’t know who she is. But all these things are relative, I guess. I think about this a lot, though. How do you define popularity these days? Because you’re absolutely right. Well, I think Chappell and Charli have very clearly loyal fans who’ve already been with them for a while and really feel personally connected to them in a way that it doesn’t feel manufactured at all. But that feels like that’s signals, to me, kind of longevity.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah.
For the last part of our conversation, why don’t we talk about how we got here? Like why these women singers and performers are big now? What it says about our listening habits. Sort of, why now? My first question is: how much of this is the Taylor Swift effect? I saw this meme that took a bunch of different women singers and characterise them as different kinds of Taylor Swift, right? Like Phoebe Bridgers is Taylor Swift for bisexual women with boyfriends and Chappell Roan is Taylor Swift for bisexual women with girlfriends.
Anna Nicolaou
My favourite was the Radiohead one.
Arwa Haider
I agree. The Radiohead one was like chef’s kiss.
Anna Nicolaou
Radiohead was Taylor Swift for what is it? Men who hate women?
Arwa Haider
Men who want to hurt women. So it’s actually really dark, but ...
Lilah Raptopoulos
Men who want to hurt women.
Anna Nicolaou
That was really on point.
Lilah Raptopoulos
I know, kind of true. Did Taylor Swift pave the way for all this? Or is that giving Taylor Swift too much credit?
Arwa Haider
It’s giving her too much credit.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Good.
Anna Nicolaou
I don’t think she’d. I mean, I think she was just kind of like the hegemon. So, like, there’s all these connections between these people. Charli opened for Taylor’s, not the Eras tour, but her previous tour. Sabrina’s opened for Taylor’s latest tour. A lot of these people are influenced or maybe like, reacting to her because she just comes up so much in the industry. But no, I don’t think like culturally this is really about her. I was like, I don’t know if this is too dark, but like I when I think about Brat specifically, I feel for me at least, I feel like this is part of the extended fallout, almost from the pandemic. This feeling like this kind of irreverence or like, why do I need to try or do what you want? Or can I just be selfish? And can I just kind of like, go out and have fun, even though I’m in my thirties and I don’t know it just for me, the vibe feels sort of like that, like outlaw post-Covid “What is life?” thing.
Lilah Raptopoulos
“What’s the point?” Right. And what you’re saying is Brat Summer really is like it’s reactive, right? It’s like, I want to be a brat. It’s OK to be a brat.
Anna Nicolaou
And I don’t know if that’s what Charli intended, but it does feel kind of someone who’s, like, a little bit fed up with everything and just kind of wants to have fun and do what they want. And it’s definitely seemed to kind of align with the culture right now.
Arwa Haider
I think the post-pandemic point is a really good one. I think Charli XCX has always had that, lashing out I think against convention and just doing things on her own terms and, you know, really bringing along lots of people with her. But yeah, I think we have always . . . pop has always offered a sense of escape and release and the idea that you can, you know, harness that energy and not be constrained by anything and be your true self and not feel isolated in being your true self. So in some ways, all of those energies are really age-old. But I guess now they resonate in a particular way and in a broader way, because I guess we live in an age where you have digital music and yeah, maybe the pandemic is also part of that, because artists necessarily have to be a lot more DIY in their approach, didn’t they? Because you couldn’t do conventional stuff.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. And if we compare this moment to other moments in which it felt like there were like, you know, there was an explosion of pop girls, I mean, it’s easy to compare right now to something like the early 2000s when we had Britney and Christina and then Pink as like an alternate pop girl and Avril as an alternate pop girl. And, I’d be curious how you would compare then to now. I mean, it feels like these women are different. They’re able to be a little more open. They are a little more queer, more unfiltered, more sort of like, forget my language, but “I don’t give a fuck”. But that might not be true. And this might not be as different of a time, as, you know, 25 years ago.
Arwa Haider
I would say that there is definitely differences in those things that definitely resonate over the decades, even further back than the turn of the 21st century. Because certainly, even if I listen to a track by Sabrina or hear stuff from the ‘80s or in the ‘90s in a really good way now, because these were periods of really exuberant classic pop production and big harmonies and all that stuff, I think will always work really well with listeners. I think the thing that feels different in a really positive way is that, all the things that pop music has traditionally been derided for, the idea that it’s girly, the idea that’s frivolous, the idea that, you know, it’s the antithesis of kind of something that’s super serious and super masculine. All those things are actually strengths. Not things to be ashamed of or to be mocked. They’re actually things to celebrate. And also that they encompass, all genders, you know. So Pop Girl Summer is for boys and men and every gender. And I think maybe that didn’t happen so much before. I think that’s a really brilliant thing.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. What do you both . . . You know, what do you want? What is your dream for the pop girl? As my . . . kind of my last question.
Anna Nicolaou
Oh, god. I just want them to be happy. (laughter) I always worry that we’re going to ruin them. I think it’s sort of a blessing in some ways to become much bigger in music a little bit later. But yeah, I just hope for more of it really.
Arwa Haider
I would like pop girls to feel unconstrained. And to feel like, you know, they’re there for every season, not just summer.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, me too. I want to thank you so much. We will be back in just a moment for More or Less.
Welcome back for More or Less, the part of the show where each guest says something they want to see more of or less of in culture. Anna, what do you have?
Anna Nicolaou
I would like to see more live theatre. Oh, I’m going to cabaret tonight and I’m so excited. And I don’t know why I haven’t been going to more shows in the past few years, but it feels like, I don’t know, it feels like, at least in my world, like concerts really came back for some reason. I haven’t been going to plays and things like that. So yeah, that’s I think what I personally want to see more of.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Great. Arwa, what about you? What do you want to see more of or less?
Arwa Haider
I would like more anime on the big screen now. The reason is I’ve been, I’ve grown up a fan of both Japanese animation and also manga comics. But I think in recent years, we’ve really, really seen its global impact on a level that, you know, I think is really, really noticeable. But yeah, there’s a whole bunch of stuff. I mean, there’s amazing fantasies. And then there’s been weirdly, I’m not a big sports fan, but there’s a bunch of sports animes that have been amazing to watch.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Sports animes? I didn’t even know that was a thing.
Arwa Haider
Yeah. Because there’s literally every genre. So obviously you’ve got fantasy films, you’ve got horror, you shoot stuff. My Neighbor Totoro, the Hayao Miyazaki classic, is actually going to get a big-screen release. So I don’t know. Again, there’s just a wealth of stuff to enjoy. And even if you don’t consider yourself a fangirl or a fanboy, there’s actually a lot to to really like, relish within that. So I’m here’s to more of that, I think.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Oh, that’s a great one. OK, more of that. Mine, I also have a more. I’m reading All Fours, which is Miranda July’s new novel, and I love it. And part of why I love it is that Miranda July is just very good at reflecting, like, what goes on in a brain really well in writing. But also, she’s writing in this book about this period of time that I realised just doesn’t really get covered a lot in culture. And it’s the time after women have come of age, after they’ve had their children, just like what happens next. It feels like the culture created about that just kind of drops off a cliff. So anyway, more culture about perimenopause.
Arwa Haider
That sounds great. I love how droll she is, so I look forward to reading that.
Lilah Raptopoulos
She is. She’s droll and weird and I, she’s just kind of like a wet noodle floating around in the world. And I think that’s funny.
Anna Nicolaou
That should be on her book, one of the blurbs.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. “The Financial Times says Miranda July is a wet noodle.”
Arwa Haider
That sounds like a Brat Summer.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yes, yes, yes. Menopausal Brat Summer.
Arwa Haider
OK, like definitely the next chapter.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Arwa and Anna, this is such a delight, as usual. Please come back and thank you so much for being on the show.
Anna Nicolaou
Thank you so much.
Arwa Haider
Thank you.
Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s the show. Thank you for listening to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’ve linked to a few relevant articles in the show notes, including places that you can find Anna and Arwa, and the FT’s review of Brat. Every link that brings you to the FT gets you past the paywall. I’ve also included a link to the survey, which I asked you about in the top of the show, and ways to stay in touch with me on email and on Instagram.
I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and here is our talented team. Katya Kumkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smyth is our producer and our local queen of Pop Girl Summer. Our sound engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco, with original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forhecz is our executive producer. We had help this week from Manuela Saragosa, and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley. Have a lovely weekend and we’ll find each other again on Monday.
Today, we’re talking about the “femininomenon” that is pop girl summer. This season's music scene has been dominated by unfiltered female sensations, including Chappell Roan, Charli XCX and Sabrina Carpenter. How did these artists become so popular? How does this scene compare with that of the pop girls of the early 2000s? And what is a ‘brat’ summer? Lilah is joined by music writer Arwa Haider and US media correspondent Anna Nicolaou to chat through it.